Hands Tied--Is this any way to get the best teachers for our kids?

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Permalink Reply by JN on November 13, 2009 at 7:49pm

Veronica,

I couldn't agree with you more, it's all about tenure. Teachers grade our children, how about children and parents grading their teachers. Can you imagine the number of failing grades? They know who they are and their fellow teachers are aware of them. Granted there are fabulous teachers, but there are some that you just can't believe are in this profession. Principals seem to have their hands tied.

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Permalink Reply by Sundale Make Some Noise on November 13, 2009 at 8:33pm

*No correlation of pay to performance--poor teachers still get raises based on seniority; outstanding teachers get no more pay.

This is one of the points you mentioned. If Obama is going to shift to merit pay one day... What defines a great teacher? What if you teach special education? What if you teach PE? Do PE teachers that coach winning teams get a bonus?

Merit pay will be a big problem if it passes. What will end up happening is that all teachers will want to teach in wealthy neighborhoods if it was measured based on test scores. I wouldn't be surprised if some teachers would give out answers to standardized tests.

I remember some teachers that I really enjoyed in high school but my classmates didn't like so much.

If there really is a teacher that you wanted "for cause" termination, what was that cause? You can make formal complaints against teachers. Doing it because kids don't like a teacher isn't a good enough reason.

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Permalink Reply by bbox231 on November 15, 2009 at 5:20pm

It is fascinating that a profession so steeped in the use of testing is so quick to find fault in its use when the prospect of its application is to verify the effectivness of those same professionals.

The old addage that losers do not want to keep score is very true here - - only those who possess confidence in their skills want to measure performance.



K Caine said:

*No correlation of pay to performance--poor teachers still get raises based on seniority; outstanding teachers get no more pay."

Probably the biggest concern I have about merit based pay is that, in the rush to get the money, the plan for retaining and rewarding qualified teachers will be devised hastily and without enough thought. Worse, it could be decided by politicians and number crunchers, not professionals in education, who understand the challenges teachers face, and that not all students will learn at the same pace.

I have worked at several schools in the district, from the Mission district with the high test scores, to a schools on the Title One plan, which means a portion of students were not meeting the educational targets. Every single school had caring, dedicated staff with strong work ethics and an equally strong desire to help our students suceed. But, under a test scores approach, a significant number will be considered average or, worse, under performing.

Imagine if you were a parent with an excellent teacher at your school, and the state deemed them to be mediocre because the class scores were average. You know that three of the students had parents who worked at night and couldn't help them with their homework, two were still new to speaking English, one had a mild learning disability. Those students may even have improved 10 percent from the year before. Yet in a class of 20, those five would influence the overall scores. Wouldn't you be concerned that the teacher might get discouraged and go where he or she would be recognized for their contributions?

I am not saying merit pay shouldn't be discussed, but I would be very concerned about the impact on our students if the idea is rushed through so we can get the relief dollars...

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Permalink Reply by Kathy McDonald on November 16, 2009 at 9:02am

Performance evaluations are not all about hitting an arbitrary target. Performance can easily be measured against past performance (which would alleviate any concern over teachers having a few difficult students). If the students can be shown to "improve" at the target rate, I'm sure everyone would agree that the teacher is doing his job. Secondly, and more basically, we must see that we currently have teachers who are not committed to their classrooms or their profession. Some are making a habit of taking weeks off outside of their generous vacation schedules. I've heard of teachers routinely taking half a year off (citing the "Brown Act", which apparently maintains their position, benefits and retirement)...because they can. These types of teachers would definitely be flagged and removed. The power to actually fire this type of teacher without having to "buy them out" is something we currently lack.... I think we, and the kids deserve that right.

Sundale Make Some Noise said:

*No correlation of pay to performance--poor teachers still get raises based on seniority; outstanding teachers get no more pay.

This is one of the points you mentioned. If Obama is going to shift to merit pay one day... What defines a great teacher? What if you teach special education? What if you teach PE? Do PE teachers that coach winning teams get a bonus?

Merit pay will be a big problem if it passes. What will end up happening is that all teachers will want to teach in wealthy neighborhoods if it was measured based on test scores. I wouldn't be surprised if some teachers would give out answers to standardized tests.

I remember some teachers that I really enjoyed in high school but my classmates didn't like so much.

If there really is a teacher that you wanted "for cause" termination, what was that cause? You can make formal complaints against teachers. Doing it because kids don't like a teacher isn't a good enough reason.

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Permalink Reply by bbox231 on December 19, 2009 at 9:14am

L.A. schools realized their best opportunity to retain high quality teachers, was to scrutinize probationary teachers BEFORE obtaining tenure. Who'da thunk ?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lausd-teachers18-2009dec18,...

On a related note -

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704779704574555994244...

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Permalink Reply by Hiu Ng on December 28, 2009 at 9:01pm

Performance evaluation is a difficult subject even in the private sector. There are mistakes and it isn't always fair. There is no perfect evaluation system.

If we wait for a perfect answer as to how our school district would evaluate teachers, it will never happen. The best that our school district can do is to implement the best possible idea out there, review and improve. There is no point in waiting. FUSD may as well do it and do it now.

There is no question in my mind that teachers will have plenty of inputs. As far as I am concerned, FUSD teachers can write and provide their own performance evaluation system to start the discussion. If teachers have good ideas, I would be happy to publicly support them.

However, fundamentally, it is time for accountability. It is not to hurt teachers. It is for our kids. We owe it to our kids to do the best that we can so that they have a good education.

I have not met a single honest person within FUSD who would tell me that there is no bad teacher within our school district.

Some people may be surprised to learn that I don't really object to the no layoff clause. If our school district is full of great teachers, why shouldn't we want them to stay? To me, the top concern has always been that our school district needs to remove teachers that aren't teaching and find ways to reward those teachers that are doing great work.

Recently, I read at least 9 full pages of FUSD parent community comments (not counting the "I agree" type) about teachers not teaching. And the school principal refused to hold a community meeting to address the issues.

It is time for accountability.

It is time for FUSD's employment contracts to have some changes.

In fact, accountability should be there for everyone. FUSD executives need to evaluate school principals much more vigorously. Our School Board needs to evaluate the performance of FUSD's senior executives much more vigorously. Finally, the people of Fremont need to evaluate the performance of our School Board much more vigorously.

We need all this to be done. For the kids.

Hiu Ng

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Permalink Reply by Jannet Benz on February 4, 2010 at 5:50pm

We have numerous quality teachers in our district. Unfortunately, we also have numerous teachers who are poor performers and administrators who do nothing to manage them out. Parents are complaining for very good reason. FUSD/the union has a complaint process for parents that is so cumbersome your child will be in college before you can see it through. This system is unsustainable. Contracts that pay increases based on tenure with total disregard for performance, contain no lay-off clauses, allow teachers to move from prep to classroom simply because the have the proper "paper credential" (but no experience) perhaps bumping a quality performer is unacceptable.

Hiu is correct there is no perfect pay for performance system. But pay for performance and 360 review are systems that have worked for years in corporate America. California did not become the 8th largest economy in the world by supporting non-performing employees. Fear is often what motivates people to resist change. I believe FEAR is in play here. Rather than fighting this and worrying politicians with rush to put a plan in place, it would be refreshing to see the teachers of FUSD take a leadership role, embrace this idea, and draft a program that will make FUSD a model to follow. Perhaps some collaboration with people in the corporate world who have experience in this area would be a helpful place to start. Educate yourselves on how pay for performance CAN work rather than shooting it down before you've even seen a plan.

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Permalink Reply by bbox231 on February 4, 2010 at 7:26pm

I absolutely want to believe that a majority of our teachers are capable of producing a desired result.

Why is it that this majority remains so silent when it comes to the matter of measuring teacher effectiveness ???

Why is it that this same majority so routinely use performance testing as an indicator of student achievement but are so quick to remind us of the the limitations and flaws inherent in testing when the prospect of such testing is suggested as a yardstick for guaging THEIR performance ?

Why is it that this majority of teachers doesn't see that these unified responses serve to discredit ALL teaching professionals while running interference for the few ?

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Permalink Reply by Joseph Ramirez on March 2, 2010 at 11:42am

(OT)I am very disappointed that younger talented, and energetic teachers are being summarily laid-off,fired(RIF) due to seniority-tenure and not by measuring performance. Some people don't deserve the public trust to teach our children. Those teachers that are deficient and lazy must go for the sake of the kids. People have lost respect for the teaching profession because inferior teachers are being protected. Everyone knows the names of teachers who can't get it done at their school, some are burnt out and ill tempered(the principal knows,the parents know, and the children know). I don't think the teachers who defend seniority-tenure have sound reasons to defend their position. I think principals want teachers who make their school better(and in turn make them look good), and they do not want people who they must cover for. Take the politics out, and just stick to teaching the children. If you are good, people will notice and you will be rewarded. Keep the best teachers and forget the rest!

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Permalink Reply by Richard McGuire on March 11, 2010 at 6:56pm

"Our official assumptions about the nature of modern childhood are dead wrong. Children allowed to take responsibility and given a serious part in the larger world are always superior to those merely permitted to play and be passive."

It would benefit us greatly as a community if we identify what benefits have come from centralizing our Education system.

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